Curse

moko · Jun 20, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Skill Updates
[edit] Assassin

* Critical Agility: fixed a bug that shortened this skill's duration when it reapplied itself.

[edit] Elementalist

* Frozen Burst: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
* Mark of Rodgort: increased recharge time to 15 seconds.
* Searing Flames: decreased damage to 10..100.

[edit] Mesmer

* Conjure Nightmare: decreased duration to 2..16 seconds.
* Conjure Phantasm: decreased duration to 2..16 seconds.
* Hex Eater Signet: decreased casting time to 1 second, decreased recharge time to 25 seconds, decreased Energy gained per Hex to 1..4.

[edit] Monk

* Convert Hexes: decreased recharge time to 12 seconds.

[edit] Necromancer

* Faintheartedness: decreased duration to to 3..28 seconds.
* Reaper’s Mark: increased recharge time to 12 seconds.

[edit] Ranger

* Nature's Renewal: increased Spirit level to 1..13.

[edit] Warrior

* Crippling Slash: increased adrenaline gained to 6 strikes.
* Enraging Charge: decreased adrenaline gained to 0..4 strikes.

i am shocked. wonderful ANET, wonderful.

hex removal buffs are neat, necro hexes are nice, sf is lovely, frozen burst is amazing -- just nice. they're going into the right direction. :]

not sure what to think off hex eater signet though, maybe they'll buff it some more..

i do love the nerf to crippling slash also, it's way overused and is in some cases like RaOs used to be -- dummie mode for warriors. the enraging charge nerf makes me QQ a bit, but by just looking at sprint, it deserved it's nerf. just a bit unexpected, heh.

oh and as always, no pve trash please.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jun 20, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Great update.

Blame the Monks · Jun 20, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Yeah! Now faint lasts only 25 seconds instead of 31! And reaper can only be maintained on 2.5 people, not 3! Much harder nerf needed.

The nerfs are better than nothing, but he still should have simply listened to ensign. Ensign's list was much better thought out and addressed a lot more problematic skills for the reason they are problematic.

But its a start.

bashar pvp · Jun 20, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Yeah, great update, they're finally going into the right direction.

Now, steady stance and fear me, please

edit: but of course, it would be so much better, and easier, to follow Ensign's list

Patccmoi · Jun 20, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Nice changes overall.

I don't think the change to Faint will really do anything, but i guess it's better than nothing. It will still last incredibly long, but it's better if it can't be removed.

Change to Ele skills are great. The change to Frozen Burst isn't bad even though it's not a recharge nerf. I guess they want it to also be a damage option.

I think the biggest hurt to hex builds is definitely Hex Eater Signet! No, seriously, Convert. Convert going from 20s to 12s is a huge buff to it, and a midline that has the energy to use it can clean people really efficiently with it. This hurts hex builds far more than the nerf to Reaper's, Faint or Frozen Burst. If you fit 2 Convert on midlines, a hex build could have a really hard time to stack hexes on anyone.

The only change i think is stupid is Nature's Renewal. WTF is that buffed for? It's arguably overpowered already. You don't fix hexes by buffing a skill that seriously encourages an opposite game play (heavy physical with multiple warriors, rangers and paragons). At least they should raise the energy on it to 25.

Turbobusa · Jun 20, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Faintheartedness could have been reduced a bit more it would still be used.
Ele nerf, finally! less mindless spamming plx.
about the conjure phantasm/nightmare, I'm not sure the 2 seconds less will make a big difference
As for cripslash, its good.
great update imo, good job

to the guy under: water magic is insane. this is a gvg nerf, where water eles shines.

Qual · Jun 20, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Tbh I don't like most of these nerfs. SF needs longer burning time, so it will become a presure skill. Right now it's just shit.
The warriors skills did not need a nerf.
Nature's Renewal does not need a buff, gay thumper/spirit way, will love it though.
Frozen Burst, come on, like the water ele isn't having a hard time already...

Thom Bangalter · Jun 20, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

The convert buff is probably the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. It's not, and has never been about removal, it's about the ease of reapplication. I'd rather see removal back to where it was and a bigger hit to faint, parasitic bond, and reaper's, as well as a change to price damage.

Searing flames is starting to shape up, they just need to give it 7 seconds of burning again. Mark and burst are pretty 'meh'

Of course, all this hardly matters as I'll be too busy rolling teams with the beefier natures renewal.

they also need to fix blurred. a 1 second cast makes it impractical on split defense, but was hit because of hex builds. maybe they should hit the skills that are way more mindless like reckless and aegis first instead of killing a skill that was strong in skirmishes but pretty easily removed at stand.

defensive splits need skills that offer blocking and miss rates, and with warding and blurred hit it becomes far harder to defend a base.

Qual · Jun 20, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

The convert buff is probably the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. It's not, and has never been about removal, it's about the ease of reapplication.
Searing flames is starting to shape up, they just need to give it 7 seconds of burning again.

Well spoken words.
Or maybe they could make SF 10 energy, then it would be fine I guess.

Patccmoi · Jun 20, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

When you say something like 'like the water isn't having a hard time already...' it kinda feels like you never obsed a GvG game where Hydros are in about every single team build and damn powerful. And they only nerfed 2 skills that deserved it and let a lot of other really powerful but balanced skills like Freezing Gust untouched. Water is still very viable, just a bit more balanced.

And really i think that a lot of nerfs to hexes might not be needed anymore with a 12s Convert. Ofc it would be better to rebalance most hexes, but very unlikely to happen anyway as it would likely make tons of people scream. This way they make long duration hexes less of an issue with a really powerful mass removal option. Now just reduce the recharge on single hex removal slightly to have more in the 8-10s range and the hex removal options will be much more interesting and possibly able to cope with hex builds while leaving hexes still powerful if you can control their removal (which is fine, cause controlling stuff like 2 Converts isn't mindless).

EDIT : And Thom, when you say Convert hexes change is dumb cause it's not about removal it's about reapplication, i disagree. If for example you PBlock their Curse Necro, there goes their reapplication. It also costs a lot of energy to reapply 2-3 worthy hexes over and over, and while your warriors/casters are cleaned they can pressure them and possibly interrupt/disrupt their reapplication. Now that Necros lost their energy battery options with spirits, they don't have unlimited energy to reapply hexes over and over if you counter some of it. And hexers still need to have an impact even if they face removal to be viable characters so you can't hurt their reapplication ability too much.

Servant of Kali · Jun 20, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

It's fine except:

1) NR. I always hated fighting against this. It completely kills some team builds, and it's very annoying to fight against.
2) Still no buff to zillion of never used skills. It would be nice to make them at least semi-decent to increase build variations. That doesn't make builds overpowered or hard to balance. Im saying at least semi-decent, unlike suckable which they are now.

Andrew Patrick · Jun 20, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

If you have more proposed changes, please feel free to discuss them. It's a lot easier for there to be one big thread about skill balance instead of individual threads for each skill you think should be nerfed/buffed.

Zuranthium · Jun 20, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I don't like the Mark nerf at all. That's one of the skills which made a solo (Mind Blast) Fire elem fit well into a balanced build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

If you have more proposed changes, please feel free to discuss them. It's a lot easier for there to be one big thread about skill balance instead of individual threads for each skill you think should be nerfed/buffed.

*AHEM*.

~Z

Patccmoi · Jun 20, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I don't like the Mark nerf at all. That's one of the skills which made a solo (Mind Blast) Fire elem fit well into a balanced build.

~Z

Ya i think i'd agree with this one some. But i think the problem with Mark is that it just mass cover hexes far too much. But that's possibly more about the way it was buffed before much more than its recharge.

If it was 15/1/5 with adjacent Area, it'd stay quite viable on a Mind Blaster without causing a potential issue with mass cover hex.

If you want it Nearby because of Searing Flames, simply switch it so that Searing Flames burns longer. With the nerf to its damage, there's no reason not to. Make Searing Flames burn for 7-8s and Mark won't be so necessary with it, and it'll become a better pressure option too.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 20, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

If you have more proposed changes, please feel free to discuss them. It's a lot easier for there to be one big thread about skill balance instead of individual threads for each skill you think should be nerfed/buffed.

Read Ensign's post. Done. Ensign is one of those few people that know how the game works, know how to fix most of the big problems, and also PvEs enough to know that most of his changes won't affect it that badly (of course they can't complain, look at PvE-only skills).

yesitsrob · Jun 20, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

In general I think this update is a step in the right direction, which I think will probably be a popular opinion.

On Blurred: I don't think the 2 second cast was the correct way to nerf it either. Like Thom said, it's hard to use for split defense now, and it's hard to use to catch balled up warriors converging on a target with it now. I think a shorter duration would have been a better idea than 2 second cast.

I think NR was a bit strong anyway, but the update doesn't excactly make it much stronger.

Faint and Reapers could do with harder hits probably but really not much to complain about imo. It's an improvement for sure.

moko · Jun 20, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

If you have more proposed changes, please feel free to discuss them. It's a lot easier for there to be one big thread about skill balance instead of individual threads for each skill you think should be nerfed/buffed.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10163011

-- and i thank you for replying, the community appreciates it, A LOT!

also, keep the flaming down, i'm annoyed already, seriously?

Blame the Monks · Jun 20, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

If you have more proposed changes, please feel free to discuss them. It's a lot easier for there to be one big thread about skill balance instead of individual threads for each skill you think should be nerfed/buffed.

Thanks for responding.

The PvP community recently had a very long discussion, the culmination of months of experience and debate. This list represents the consensus of the high end pvp community. Please take it VERY seriously. A response would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The May tournament is over, and A.Net is free to make another big balance update without any pending events. In the spirit of things, here's my wishlist of most of the really stupid garbage in the game that should go away. I'd like to see a bunch of sane buffs to underused stuff as well, but at this point taking out the garbage that's been festering for nearly a year now takes precedence.

Nothing would make me happier than seeing a list along these lines posted on guildwars.com early next week:

Assassin
*Reduce maximum Shadow Step distance from radar to half radar*
Black Lotus Strike: 10...20 Damage, 3...15 Energy
Shadow Prison: 2...6d

Dervish
Wearying Strike: 5...20 Damage, 5s Weakness, 10r

Elementalist
Searing Flames: 10...85 Damage, 1...7 Burning Duration
Mark of Rodgort: 10...25d
Blurred Vision: 8...14d
Frozen Burst: 12r
Rust: 15...30d, 1c

Mesmer
Panic: 5...20d
Mantra of Persistence: 20...50% longer hex duration
Spirit Shackles: 8...20d, 10r

Monk
Aegis: 20...50% block

Necromancer
*Soul Reaping - Fix it. Best solution so far is "Remove Energy from Minions and Spirits that are not your own"*
Faintheartedness: 33% Slower Attack Speed, 2c, 5...20d
Meekness: 33% Slower Attack Speed, 15...30d, remove health sacrifice
Reckless Haste: 25...70% miss chance, 4...10d, 1c, 20r
Shadow of Fear: 33% Slower Attack Speed, 15...30d
Reaper's Mark: 1...6 Degen, 20d, 10e

Paragon
"Go for the Eyes!": 50...80% Critical Chance, 6A
"Stand Your Ground": 20 Armor
Aggressive Refrain: 5...20d, -10 Armor
Defensive Anthem: 2c
Finale of Restoration: 20r
Purifying Finale: 20r

Ranger
Broad Head Arrow: 4...10d

Ritualist
Spirit Burn: 15...60/5...20 Damage, 5r
Spirit Rift: 2c
Splinter Weapon: 1...4 triggers, 12d
Wielder's Strike: 10...40/10...40 Damage, 5r

Warrior
"Fear Me!": 6A
"Watch Yourself!": 1...16 Armor, 6A
Steady Stance: 10r

That should clear out 90% of the degenerate, braindead garbage that makes me want to not play Guild Wars. Did I miss anything?

Peace,
-CxE

---

Edit Log

Removed 15e from Concussion Shot. That is a sufficiently substantial buff that it warrants discussion on its own.
Added Wielder's Strike, Spirit Burn, and Spirit Rift nerfs, on Nurse's suggestion.

Raised max shadow step distance from earshot to half radar.
Frozen Burst 10r->12r for no more endless looping on its own.
Changed Wielder's Strike and Spirit Burn from spike skills back into pressure skills.
Added Suffering, Rust, Mark of Rodgort duration hits, because AoE hexes are lame.

Added Blurred Vision, Parabond hits. Lowered Weakness duration on Wearying Strike.

Pulled Parabond and Suffering changes...on account of those not being problems if the problem hexes being balanced.
Pulled Concussion Shot from the list, as the changes I'd want to it would be a full rework and a net buff.
Removed energy buff to Mantra of Persistence
Added Reckless Haste hit/rework
Added slight Aggressive Refrain duration hit. I'm afraid of making it bad.

Moved the armor debuff of Paragons onto Aggressive Refrain, on brilliant suggestion by rii.

Lord Natural · Jun 20, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

The mesmer/necro hex nerfs are pretty tepid. It strikes me as one of those updates just made in an attempt to pacify those seeking greater changes, without actually changing anything.

It is nice to see Mark of Rodgort updated, and I think Crip Slash deserved a little hit. I'll be more interested when sins are properly balanced. Definitely a step in the right direction, though.

Thom Bangalter · Jun 20, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

well ok Mr. Patrick, let's do that in this thread!

I already went over blurred in my last post (it's not so much blurred so much as aegis, blind, wards, necro hexes at stand that are more problematic, and was a needed skill on a defensive split. coupled with the warding nerf it hurts runners a lot).

I think that far too many players want to see hex removal buffs and hexes nerfed. It's not, and has almost never been about removal. The problem with hexes is that they give long lasting effects for minimal investment, and removal is only problematic because of the ease in which you can cover said hexes quickly.

This is why skills like faint and parasitic bond need to be hit the most. Faint is warrior hate and cover hex and overly spammable, and still lasts a good half minute. When you buff hex removal and keep buffing it, it becomes hurtful to individual hex guys such as a water ele or that one necro you're running with. Dedicated hex builds just bring more hexes to keep up with the removal, so it does little to hurt hex overload builds but makes single hex characters too weak.

Price damage needs to be toned down because there are far too many ways to miss/be blocked when on warrior (reckless, blurred, aegis, wards, blind, etc). Faint and parabond need miniscule durations and faster recharges to promote active play.

Aegis still needs a hit, most likely in duration. (diminishing returns would most likely be even better, so that you only squee out a second or 2 at 14 as opposed to a 8, 9, or 10 spec. Mirror helps at the moment, but that requires a team to bring mirror, and having a skill that counters a skill promotes build wars quite a bit, and I think most pvp players are quick to point out how much they hate build wars and would rather see a game of skill)

faint, again, needs to have like 10 duration and 20 recharge. This promotes active play as you can shut down one warrior for a few minutes giving your team time to recover and push again, but you can't maintain it on 2+ physicals and still have time to throw it on casters just for the degen.

Parabond needs to not be the perfect cover hex so that removal can keep up with hex builds and not just cacth parabond but leave the nasty stuff like price/blurred on the warriors.

If the faint and parabond changes are put into effect, mass hex removal like purge and convert need to be more or less squashed and skills like divert and deny need to stay about right where they are. Veil probably needs a shorter recharge, but it's always needed a shorter recharge.

Parasitic bond is the big one. It needs to last 8-10 seconds top, so that it can fall off and the longer lasting price/reckless skills can be dealt with.

Searing flames is almost absolutely perfect. It just needs 7 seconds of burning again so that its solid with one or two fire eles. The damage reduction is a little higher than I wanted but the burning duration and glowing gaze hit from however long ago were never the issue, it was always the damage. Being able to hit with that much damage on that fast a cast and have it on that short a recharge made the skill too good, not energy or burning duration concerns.

Frozen burst is pretty solid now, not overly good. It was pretty easy to punish those guys due to aftercast to begin with if you had a hammer warrior, and the duration change makes it more on par with skills like f. gust, spikes, and shard storm.

The only other skill I can think of at the moment that needs a change is mor. It turns mesmers into mindless diversion/shame spammers whereas skills like power block or more in line with skilled play. Having a guy sit on you all day with diversion is pretty stupid, particularly since he has drain going on cycle to keep energy up, and p drain is pretty easy to use on everyone but the monks. Having the interrupts AND diversion AND shame is far too strong a template.

Oh, and about NR: time to steal iQ's build, as its easily the strongest template now.

p.s. Ensign's list is better than mine.